Curse

Axwind · Mar 10, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Magma, you too fail to answer the question. Would she really treat an old friend like a stranger, like someone she'd only just met? Does that make any sense at all? It doesn't have to be a string of quests, but at least alternate dialogue in places in EOTN outside that quest to signify that those events in the past happened, that that friendship existed. Is that too much to ask?

Really, after not seeing her for 8 years, all PH says is "I think these belong to you."? That's all? It doesn't make any logical sense. I don't know how you can be satisfied with that. Just because some people don't think there was ever much there doesn't mean everything in the game should be tilted in their exclusive favor leaving those of us who did see something more feeling stiffed and unappreciated. And I never said the quests had to be big, either, or even mandatory.

The GW crew really needs to work on their storytelling skills. This particular story was something that could have been really good. Old friends separated by time, distance, and war finally seeing each other again after so many years. Both changed, both affected by what they've gone through. And each being able to help the other in some way, thus renewing that friendship.

And Magma, why would they have even had her there in pre, even featured her in the closing cinematic, if you weren't supposed to have some kind of bond with her by the time you left? Plus the fact that you can find her broken flute after the Searing. They wouldn't have gone to all that trouble if she wasn't supposed to matter.

And one more thing, why am I automatically wrong just because I disagree with you?

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, extra quests may not be necessary. Just dialogue changes and additions. Such as the intro dialogue in the HoM, that could be extended and made better to make the reunion deeper and more meaningful, instead of giving PH just one line to say after not seeing her for the last eight years. More dialogue between them at the end of her quest would be nice, too, instead of her saying everything. Also, her epilogue dialogue could be redone as well to be different depending on which campaign you came from and whether her quest was done or not. In addition, she could be given a few extra quotes to be able to say when you have her as a hero, lines that like the epilogue would reflect where the character came from and whether he or she is her old PH friend or not.

MithranArkanere · Mar 10, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I don't remember many things from before I was 17, and almost nothing from before I was 10.

I find perfectly normal that she doesn't remember a guy she followed during a single afternoon before the Searing, especially when she was busy dodging giant Crystal spears.

And it would be unfair to add more backstory to Tyrian characters and not to the other Two regions.

Axwind · Mar 11, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

How would it be unfair, Mithran, when no such backstory exists for characters from other campaigns? And just because you don't remember stuff from when you were younger doesn't mean everyone doesn't. I do. I have some clear memories of things that happened to me around that age and younger, and I'm far older than Gwen was in EOTN. And besides, one would think that an event like the Searing would stick out in her mind even after all those years, and from there the memory of the person she was with for a time just prior to it.

Tyrian characters already get that extra quest, all I'm saying now is that the dialogue surrounding it could be reworked and added to to reflect that backstory better. As well as what I said above, altered and additional dialogue outside the quest to reflect where the character came from, be it Tyria or somewhere else, to give the experience of the expansion a different feel for each campaign.

I might not have been as clear as I'd thought about what I meant, so I went ahead and reworked some of the EOTN dialogue with Gwen a little, to show what I mean when I say it could use a little revision and addition. Nothing too drastic, just enough to bring more closure to Gwen and PH's backstory and acknowledge outside the quest that it actually happened. As well as giving each campaign a few extra unique quotes and epilogue dialogue. Anyway, here's what I did:

[Opening dialogue]

Gwen: You look oddly familiar. You say you are from the south?
PH: Yes, I am. And I have something of yours. Something you once gave me.
Gwen: It can't be... can it? So many feelings... so many memories, I... <Player Name>, is... is that you?
PH: Yeah. It's been a long time, Gwen.
Gwen: Too long. It's good to see you again.
PH: It's good to see you, too. How'd you end up here?
Gwen: I was captured by the Charr, and I escaped. It... it's not something I like to think about. But come, the Vanguard needs us now. We can talk more later.

[During the T&N, H&T quest]

Gwen: These ruins were once a great temple. I think that's why the Charr used it as a temporary prison. Every passing second, our presence was a reminder of a destroyed past and a denied future, built on top of a monument to our broken faith.
Gwen: I have never known a creature more hateful than the Charr. Had I not escaped from them, I would be dead by now. Or worse, a prisoner.
Gwen: Before the Ebon Vanguard found me, I was little more than a scavenger. Although I had an empty stomach, my mind was filled with thoughts of vengeance.
Gwen: Now that I find myself here, though, these broken pillars do not seem as tall and frightening as they once did.
PH: Gwen, I... I'm sorry. I shouldn't have left so soon that day. If I hadn't, then maybe...
Gwen: How could you have known? How could any of us have known? We had no warning, no way of knowing that all we knew was soon to be destroyed. You had your duty, and I?wait, do you hear that? There are people here! If the Charr are still using this place to hold prisoners, then we must free them!

[Finding Daghar]

Daghar: So predictable... Threaten their holes, and the little mice scamper out.
Gwen: Silence, you thrice-damned monster! I will have your heart in compensation for the one you broke!
Daghar: Ah, the young mouse returns. And not alone. Yes, I recognize you, <Player Name>. You have quite the reputation among my people. Now I will end it.
PH: The only thing ending today will be your life, demon! As it should have a long time ago!
Daghar: Now I understand where your anger comes from, Charr-killer. Shall I tell you how the young mouse screamed? How she cowered before me?
PH: Save your stories for Grenth. Because you're about to meet him!

[After defeating Daghar]

Gwen: As a child, I found myself haunted by his remorseless eyes staring into my own... and then nothingness. When the world appeared to me again, I was seeing it for the first time as a prisoner. For all of the horrors I witnessed while under the captivity of the Charr, few compare to the murderous visage of the one who took me from everything that I knew. That was Dahgar.
Gwen: You will torment me no longer, demon. As you have taken from me, I have taken from you. A life for a life.
Gwen: But I must apologize... I did not mean to drag you here for my own personal vendetta.
PH: It's alright. He deserved to be punished for what he did to you.
Gwen: It means a lot to me to hear you say that. Thank you.
PH: But... he was right, you know. It was because of me that he was able to capture you in the first place. Because I wasn't there to stop him.
Gwen: Don't say that, old friend. He was too strong for you back then. You wouldn't have been able to save me from him had you been there.
PH: I would have died trying.
Gwen: I know. But please, don't blame yourself for what happened to me. It wasn't your fault.
PH: I wanted to find you when the Searing hit, but I couldn't. Everything was chaos, and people were dying everywhere. It was all I could do to help Rurik and the Vanguard hold back the Charr. I never gave up hope that you were alive, though. Even when my travels took me far away from our homeland, I never forgot about you, Gwen. And I always hoped I'd be able to find you again someday. I'm glad I did.
Gwen: So am I. And there is something I mean to give you, but I had to see the safety of our homeland first. Come, we go to the ruins of Ashford... to my old home.

[After kneeling]

Gwen: Do you remember this? It is the flute you gave me all those years ago. I lost the broken pieces of my first flute in the Searing, and did not want to lose your gift.
Gwen: I hid it here in the hopes that it would not be lost to me after the Searing.
PH: I must have run through this place a dozen times back then, but I never knew this was here.
Gwen: As you allowed me to keep this tapestry shred, allow me to return to you the flute, as a sign of our friendship. We have lost a great deal, but some things will endure. We will see this war through to its end. We will bring peace to these lands, and we will see them as beautiful as they once were.
PH: You're right, Gwen. It wasn't my fault, what happened to you. Thank you for helping me to see that.
Gwen: You're welcome, old friend. Now, come. There are many battles ahead. We should see Duke Barradin in Piken Square, and deliver him the news of the Charr's defeat. After that, we should return to the north.
Gwen: The Ebon Vanguard...and the future that we need to forge, are waiting for us!

[Tyrian epilogue, if tapestry shred quest finished]

“We've come a long way together, haven't we, old friend? In spite of everything that happened, I'm glad I followed you that day. Someday, we'll take our homeland back. Someday.”

[Extra Tyrian hero quotes, if tapestry shred quest finished]

“This place reminds me of home. Remember how green everything used to be?”
“It's nice being able to travel together again. Brings back memories.”

This is just an example, and it's certainly possible to tweak more of the dialogue to make the feel of the expansion different depending on where your character comes from. This was just one way to show how it could be done in some places.

Operative 14 · Mar 16, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

That seems a little more personal that what I would suggest, but it also seems appropriate. I think overall one of the pitfalls of GW is that it got so vast, with characters from here and there, that dialogue kind of suffered for it.

For instance, last night I was doing Hell's Precipice with my Dervish from Nightfall and the dialogue at the end with [SPOILER] seemed waaaay to personal for a non-prophecies character. And yet, for my Prophecies Elementalist when I played through it the first time, it seemed like a nice, epic way to close the story off.

While Gwen's current dialogue is appropriate for a Canthan or Elonian character, it really seems like Gwen should have had more of a reaction to a Prophecies hero showing up at the Eye. Regardless of how little I knew someone from childhood, I'd still give them more than a passing glance if I met them later in life.

kazjun · Mar 17, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I agree with the OP. But then again, a lot of the other heroes don't really get much by way of character developement or story. After being introduced to hayda for example, I was hoping for some fun dialogue when you had livia and her in the same party. But nothing. I mean I can see livia ignoring her, but you'd think that hayda would at least try and snipe some. Instead she's like a cardboard cutout of a character, just an extra para to run paraway. I mean really, two quests and then its like she's got nothing to do with the story at all.

And olias and livia could have some interesting dialogue since they were pretty much on opposing sides, mantle and shining blade. But nothing there at all.

And certainly gwen and pyre. But there's no real stuff there other than the vanguard missions. Though its more than kahmu or xandra. You beat them up in the norn tourney, there's like one extra quest after and then? Nothing.

Nightfall at least had a few more hero specific quests for some of the heroes. Goren and norgu for example, had whole quest chains in vabbi. And koss, dunkoro and melonni had a bunch of quests in the sunspear command post as well as cutscenes through the missions. Some were funny too, koss and his potion and goren and shiny.

But then again, maybe I'm just old fashioned and remembering the character interactions from old school rpgs like baldurs gate 1+2. Now that was character driven. I replayed that over and over again just to see how stuff changed depending on who you had in a party and the stuff they'd say to each other. They were companions, not just mobile platforms for you to mount weapons and skillsets on.

Axwind · Mar 17, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Yeah, I understand what you mean, kazjun, I just centered on Gwen because of the previous backstory between her and Prophecies Hero. But yeah, more story for other heroes would be good too.